What does the future of podcast
monetization look like?
And in particular, what does the future
look like for the independent creator?
It's something that a lot of podcasters
concern themselves with, especially in the
world of minimum revenue guarantees and
minimum download thresholds for
advertisements and big words being thrown
around like programmatic advertising.
The good news is that as an indie, maybe
we don't need to worry about any of that
That is what we're going to dive into
today here on the podcast accelerator.
I'm your host, Mark Asquith, and I'm
joined by a great friend and a wonderful
industry thinker and an actual industry
doer, of which I believe there should be
But we'll talk about that on another
We are going to talk all things value for
We're going to talk all things
We're going to talk all things the future
for the indie creator.
And we're going to talk about the brand
new platform called
Welcome to the show, Mr.
Sam Sethi How are you my friend?
Wow, I need to have one of you just lead
in me, go in front of me in rooms and just
That'll be amazing.
like a David Brent thing.
We'll get a nice boom box on my shoulder.
We'll play a little bit of Tina Turner.
You're the best.
We'll just any room you need, my friend,
I don't like doing this because I know
that everyone really should know you like
I know you because I know the fantastic
work that you do in the industry.
But I want to get to some of the cool
stuff that you're up to with, with the
product that you've got and some of the
thinking that you do, which I think is
vital, but I'm going to do the thing that
everyone else does at the end.
I'm going to say, Sam, tell us what you
And importantly, give us your bloody
Okay, what I do, I co-host Pod News Weekly
with James Cridland.
We've been doing that for about three
And so that's great fun.
It allows me to interview cool people and
talk with James about what's going on in
the industry on a weekly basis.
And it's so, so hectic every week.
Beginning of the week, I think, Oh God,
what we're going to talk about this week.
And by the end of the week, it's like,
Jesus, cut that we haven't got enough
And invariably, the Pod News Weekly
We tried to make it a half hour podcast at
It's invariably 90 minutes on average.
It's ridiculously long.
So apologies to everyone about that.
And then on the side, just to keep myself
busy, I've got a new podcasting platform
I love it.
I want to dig into that in just a second.
And before we do that, though, I do, I
want to set the scene.
I think that pod news weekly 30 minute
aspiration is actually a really good place
to start because that has been the
situation in podcasting.
I mean, I want to say at least for the
last five or six years, it was felt a
little different before that.
It was there was a lot going on, but it
It wasn't I don't want to say mainstream,
but it wasn't as close to mainstream as it
is now, which then incurred the fact that,
wasn't as much money coming through it
because of that there was much less
interest and then there was this startup
boom there was this money boom there was
this boom of acquisitions and everythingjust seemed to go crazy:
things started to change so as someone
that's really at the forefront of the news
and the response to the news every single
week it's easy for me to sit here and say
things have changed things are slowing
down and for other people to comment and
say things are slowing down but like is it
Is that true?
It doesn't feel like what you're saying
matches with some of the narrative that we
It seems as busy as ever.
I think what we're seeing is that people
are still actively involved in podcasting.
Yeah, there is a slowdown.
I mean, we all know that COVID resulted in
people sat at home bit bored, got a mic
out, started a podcast anchor gave it away
We got a influx of podcasts that you know,
let's be honest, some were not very good
and some were okay.
But but it wasn't
Now what we've seen post COVID, of course,
is a lot of that's gone away, people have
gone back to work.
And that's fine.
We've seen also companies now the stock
markets are beginning to say to companies
like a cast and others look, oh, you,
you've got some money.
Now we want to see some profit.
Yeah, great that you are still revenue
But Spotify, a cast, podimo, all these
others, let's see the money.
And so there's been some downsizing of
people and cuts.
I think the exclusives that were out
there, it was a good idea to start off
Let's get, you know, big high profile
names, see if we can generate some numbers
around it in terms of people and that will
lead to more revenue and profitability.
Hopefully didn't quite work.
But I think again, looking at global,
there have been some amazing alternatives
where there's actually been a very clever
So the news agents been brilliant.
I mean, the numbers you guys are hitting
are knocking it out of the park, but also,
you know, look at.
The rest is, you know, Goldhanger
They've got, the rest is politics, the
rest is football, and they're doing really
well with all of their titles.
And I think crowd networks, there's a lot
of good solid companies who are producing
good solid podcasts that are generating
real income and real revenue.
Now, what does that mean going down the
Yeah, it's still hard work.
I mean, you know, most people are, younow, if they're getting above:
listeners, they're still in the top
So podcasting is not quite yet, you know,s of:
But it is, I think an industry that's
gone, I liken it to remember web one.io
when everyone had crazy valuations, and
there was a pop and everyone went, Oh,
well, that's the internet over and done
with in law, let's all go home.
And then suddenly web two came and it
stabilized and real business models
occurred and real revenue occurred.
And we are where we are today.
And I think that's exactly what podcasting
It's, it's seen its early days.
It's seen its massive pop rise with crazy
money coming into the industry.
And now there's been a downturn and then
slowly, I think 23, 24, the end of 23,
early 24, we're beginning to see proper
businesses and proper podcasting models.
different revenue models, but proper
And so, yeah, I think we're a good
Yeah, I hear that.
And I love the comparison to web one and
And we're going to talk about web 3.0.
And I'm always amazed how it's taking so
many hosting companies in podcasting to
get rid of their web 2.0 interfaces.
And some of them still got them.
You know, we all like stuff that looks
nostalgic, but time for an upgrade,
Let's just move ahead with that one.
And I think that's representative of where
the industry was, though.
There was no real need to shift.
And you know, all sort of flippancy aside
with that one, it was a genuine, that was
a genuine issue.
There was no honest reason to shift
because, you know, you think about the
creator economy and you think about the
way that that's always worked and that's
always generated revenue.
And suddenly you get something.
And I don't want to be the guy that
invokes cereal, but I've got to do it.
You know, you get something like cereal
that puts podcasting on the map for the
consumerism in a much bigger way.
you know, the boom can be directly
attributed to that kind of feeling where
everyone started to look at podcasting as
a media, as an industry.
And I completely agree with it now that
we've come out of the end of what appears
to be that talent boom, which, you know, a
lot of people say that was a silly move,
you know, let's why, why acquire Joe
Rogan's the best example, if you're not
going to be profitable.
I do think there was a lot of strategy in
that around just acquiring users.
And I don't think there was necessarily a
need for profit.
I think it was a loss leader in many ways.
Um, and it's.
I think to a lot of people in the
industry, it hurt their feelings a little
bit that podcasting was like the loss
leader for a platform.
And again, I understand that because we're
close to the industry.
But what interests me about the way that
you think and the way that you do things,
and I think we think pretty similarly on a
lot of these issues, is that podcasting is
sort of bundled in now.
Everything that is on-demand audio is sort
of called podcasting now.
And it's not, you know, if I go and watch
a Marvel movie, whether that's on Disney
or whether that's in a movie theater,
that's not bundled together with a home
video or something necessarily on YouTube.
And I feel like podcasting has got that
yet to come where, you know, crowd,
global, wondering, whoever's producing top
tier multifaceted IP that happens to be
delivered via a podcast to start with,
eventually starts to sort of not become
we feel that the creator economy is where
And we saw that last week or it was last
week, wasn't it?
With the new Batman original from Spotify
that just doesn't have the word.
It's an audio original, audio drama,
whatever the wording was, it just not got
the word podcast.
So do you think there's a challenge there?
And well, I want to bring this back to the
independence in a bit because I think this
is where pod fans work so well.
But do you think that is, is that pie in
the sky thinking or is there something in
that logic around why are we bundling
everything now under podcast?
Well, it's become the Hoover of the words,
So when you say I'm going to go and Hoover
the lounge, you're not talking about
getting the brand Hoover.
It could be Dyson, right?
It's the generic word.
Google, we don't say search, we say we're
just gonna Google it, right?
I mean, so I think podcasting has taken
that generic mantle of anything that's
audio video that I can consume digitally
pragmatist, and I'll put myself in that
camp, you know, would say, well, it's not
really because it hasn't got RSS.
But look, 99% of people who are what we
call the normies are not bothered whether
it has RSS attached to it, right?
They open up Spotify, they open up
YouTube, they consume it.
And to them, it's a podcast.
So therefore it is.
And we just have to get over ourselves.
I think where we will evolve possibly is
new words will come out.
maybe as you said, we talk about films,
then we talk about DVDs, and we talk about
on demand, and we talk about streaming in
the video homeworld, you know, Netflix.
But equally, I just said, I'm going to
watch a film on Netflix.
And it doesn't really have to have that
connotation of a cinema attached.
So I think language is loose and flexible.
And I don't think we should get too hung
up on it.
But I think as podcasters go, yeah, I
mean, I think
think it's I'm I was against YouTube was
against audible in many ways, you know,
calling them podcasts.
I've sort of flipped I've gone like, you
know what, let it be because if we get a
secondary glow from the word podcast have
been picked up by some 18 year old or 25
year old who's just getting into it.
And then they go, Oh, what other podcasts
can I use or listen to or watch?
They will they will eventually
get their education curve to where we want
them to be, but they have to start
Yeah, I felt that way about Anker back in
You know, you get a lot of the incumbents
having a real good cry about Anker.
You know, well, Anker's coming along and
And if you're free, you know, if it's
free, then you're the product, which is
ironic, given, you know, that many of the
hosting platforms have freemium, which is
And I'd sort of treated that.
That's how I treated Anker as a, in my
mind was it's just a freemium product that
doesn't have a premium tier and guess who
was the premium tier?
You know, here we are at Captivate.
My logic was always the same that if
someone, I would rather someone start a
podcast using anchor and it was free and
then realized, oh, do you know what?
Okay, I enjoy this.
Now it's time for something different and
Captivate was an option for them.
Not even saying that we were the only one.
I would just rather we were in that mix
rather than them just say, oh no, I've got
to pay money for this thing that I might
not enjoy doing.
And yeah, it's a...
I feel exactly the same way about that.
So I'm with you on that.
I think that the evolution and the halo
that we all feel with regards to the word
podcasting, taking on various different
I'm all right with that.
I think that's OK.
And there's merit to there's merit to open
in that market, because then to bring it
back to the revenue stuff, which I really
want to dig into, you can.
You can't bring more money in if you are
not making more people aware of what
And if this is the way that it really goes
mainstream, then we can't.
I don't think we can be that sad about it.
So let's, let's switch up to the creators
So let's talk about pod fans.
You know, even, even now, a lot of people
still think that monetizing a podcast as
an indie with.
You know, a hundred downloads, a hundred
is super tough.
You know, they think it's difficult to get
sponsorships regardless of whether they go
direct and they've got a super niche
audience or not.
And many people are put off by that.
There are other ways.
So we know about that.
You've been a big pioneer of value for
And pod fans is there, this new product
that you're launching this week into the
public domain properly is right at the
bleeding edge of that.
So can you spend a second or two just
educating the audience on, okay, what is
this whole value for value thing?
What is pod fans?
How does it work?
And actually, why should we be interested
Yeah, before I do, sorry, before I do, let
me take a quick step back because it looks
blame why value for value is important.
So when I was at Netscape, I was the
product manager, we created the browser
HTTP was the way that people learned about
And I remember going out and saying to
people, oh, by the way, Mark, it's called
It's called a URL has starts with HTTP and
people were going never catch on.
don't understand what you're talking
about, first of all, and secondly, you'll
never catch on.
It did, as we all know.
So new vocabulary is always hard to get
into the lexicon of people's minds.
The second part of that was Mark
Andreessen, my boss never created a micro
So in the absence of it, we got hearts,
likes, thumbs up as sentiment analysis.
So people wanting to tell the creator that
they like what they've done, that was all
they could give them.
There was no form of payment.
Then the creators went, well, I need
I can't keep doing this for free.
So that they ended up creating advertising
around the content.
And that's where we got to today.
Now fast forward, and we have something
Now, most people rolled their eyes the
minute you say Bitcoin.
And if I say it's a digital wallet, and
it's called a micro payment, and they call
Again, these are all new words, people
look at you going that'll never catch on.
It's all Swahili.
I don't know what you're talking about,
Well, as I said, people didn't understand
what HTTP was either.
So there are about 50 million people using
digital wallets today.
So it's not, you know, small chump change,
there are a good number of people out
And it's slowly catching on.
We're seeing the numbers, you know,
through various wallets increasing.
So what is a micro payment?
What is value for value?
So a micro payment is 100 millionth of the
Bitcoin, it has to be that small.
And why do you need it at all when you've
got PayPal and Stripe and Visa and
MasterCard and Apple Pay?
Well, because all of those take payment
And because they take those fees, if I
just wanted to give you Mark 50 P or a
pound for this show, I couldn't do it
because actually most of that money would
go to the payment gateway provider, even
if they accepted that payment, because
most won't even accept those small
This micro payment model came about and
that's the first part of it.
Now value for value is just a simple new
It doesn't have to include micro payments
Value for value is simply you mark set a
value for the content you're creating and
means the listener can agree with the
value you set or disagree and if I agree,
I just pay it and if I disagree, I can
make it higher.
I could say Mark you're stupid.
boy, this is the best show ever.
I'm doubling or tripling the amount I want
to pay you or I'm sorry, Mark, I'm a
I haven't got quite into your show.
So I don't want to pay you.
I'm going to pay you nothing now.
I'm going to listen for free.
But when I become a fan, I will trip over
into paying you.
So value for value is a very simple model.
We have it in real world.
You know, if somebody walks into a shop,
they see a sale ticket price, that's the
offer price, they can legally go to the
counter and offer a different price, but
we just too British, and we don't do it.
But bartering is that way.
It's a value for value is a very simple
real time model.
Now, what's nice about it with podcasting
is because you get a digital wallet and
you get these micro payments in them,
think of them as tokens, then, you know,
it's a direct payment between you, the
listener and the creator.
There is no third party.
There's no middleman.
There is no I'm going to do, you know, go
up here and I'm going to hold your money
until I'm comfortable.
There's no none of that.
So direct payments.
which is the root of what Web Wando 1.0
You know, if you remember Linewire,
Napster, Skype, it was a peer-to-peer
It was Web2 that made it client server
And yes, you mentioned it earlier, Mark.
So I'll say it again.
Web3 is very much about decentralization
and peer-to-peer monetization.
And so we're going back to the roots of
the web and value for value is a new
economic model that really will benefit
And sorry, Mark, this is the last part.
So the average CPM rate for an advert is
If you're a creator with less than a
couple of you know, 100 users, you're not
going to get that $25 CPM rate, you're
So what can you do, you can go and get a
sponsor if you're lucky, maybe you might
get a few of your mates listening.
And who might want to pay you buy your
coffee or whatever it may be.
Kevin Kelly's seminal blog post was a
thousand true fans and all he said was
look, stop chasing millions of people.
None of us are Joe Rogan.
So if you've got a couple of hundred
people willing to pay you 50p an episode,
a pound an episode, that covers your
hosting costs and gives you a little bit
Now scale that up to the likes of a news
agent at global with 10 million users and
you know, then the revenue numbers
outweigh anything you'll get through
But we're just in the early days.
And so when this
crosses over and it will, then people will
probably not want to be interrupted by
advertising and they will willingly pay to
listen to content that they're a fan of.
We're starting to see that shift as well.
We're starting to see the trend of people
saying that podcasts have too many adverts
because that is the only way when you have
a large audience and the only extra thing
that you can do outside of listener
support, so through subscriptions,
memberships, or whether it's taking tips
as you alluded to earlier, the only way is
to simply insert one more ad slot, and
then again and again and again and again.
So you do start to see now that people are
starting to just say...
This is becoming a bit of an issue.
And then, you know, conversely, what you
then get is the model that you hear
throughout, you know, everywhere.
Every major production company is doing
this where listen, add free.
If you give us money per month and what I
like about the way this works.
And I'm always a I'm massively into new
I'm always looking and playing and
tinkering right in the earliest stages of
And then as someone that runs a hosting
company, I'm always thinking, actually,
When do you bring this to the masses?
And when are the people that aren't in to
tech going to be ready for this?
And I agree, you know, I think eventually
people will get on board with this
Because what I see as a major issue that
this begins to solve is that if I am an
indie creator, let's assume that I've
devoted my entire creator experience to
the Kevin Kelly logic, which I totally
I've got my thousand true fans.
How long has it taken me to get those fans
to become true fans enough that they want
to pay me?
Like that entire, if you think about it in
marketing terms, as we always do, people
like you and I, that conversion period,
that sales period is long.
They listen to X amount of podcasts, a
number of episodes, and then they've got
to discover that they like you, and then
they've got to really like you, and then
they've got to be willing to give you
and then give you something regularly
every single month.
Like that sales process is tough.
Does this go some way to solving that
problem because it is such a.
I don't want to say transient, because I
think that oversimplifies it and
diminishes it a little bit, but it's very
The decision, if that makes any sense.
So, so what we currently have today is
what I call the Chinese buffet mode.
So let's talk about Spotify or, or
subscriptions on Apple, right?
Pay me in advance for something I've not
And if I don't drop a new episode, still
keep paying me because I want you to
because that's all that a subscription can
Whereas with a value for value model, it's
a per minute payment basis.
So let's say
you start listening to a podcast and you
only listen to 20 minutes of an hour's
show, that's all you pay 20 minutes worth.
If you're listening to a book, exactly the
same thing model applies for value for
I've listened to two chapters.
I don't know how many books I've gotten
audible that I've got a third of the way
through and never listened to all of it.
The same works of video.
And most excitingly, this model is also
now working for music as well.
And that's one of the new things that's
So you might only listen to 10 tracks
instead of listening to 50 tracks, but why
pay for the 500 tracks in advance that you
never listened to?
problem with that is if anyone listens to
Meat Loaf, each song's going to cost them
Oh, if anyone listens to Meatloaf, you
just shoot them.
I'm going to tell that to the karaoke
group at the local pub because on Friday
night, they get wild up there, mate, for a
little bit of meat.
But no, I like that.
I like that.
I'm interested in the way that technology
thinkers like yourself will take what can
be very abstract concepts like value for
value, like, you know, Bitcoin, like the
Satoshi element of Bitcoin and do what all
the good people really have been doing
since day one, which is putting technology
that doesn't feel scary in between us and
that what appears to be the backend
So tell us a bit about Podfans because
that's exactly what this does.
It's a well thought out product from good
thinkers to simplify something that can be
complex for the creator.
So tell us all about it.
Tell us what Podfans does.
And really what was the idea behind it?
Where did it come from?
So, complexity is fail simplicity is one
of my favorite sayings.
And that's a guy called Edward De Bono
came up with that.
When we started pod fans, there was no
point in trying to replicate Apple and
Just a subscription based model.
We would fail.
And when I started pod fans, probably a
year to 18 months ago, Bitcoin was just
forming the Lightning Network, which is
this fast real time payment system was
So these were new ideas.
Core part of it is I firmly believe that
people's time and attention has value.
And that value is I will only pay for what
I consume and I'll only pay for the time I
listen rather than pay it all in advance.
So when we found that this micro payments
existed and it was possible to do a per
minute payment system for digital content
of any sort, that was the embryo for
starting pod fans.
So RSS, as we all know, is an open
You can consume anyone's RSS unless
they've blocked it or made it exclusive.
And on that basis, we decided that we
wouldn't have advertising as the
monetization model for creators, but we
would have this peer-to-peer direct
payment system from fan to creator.
So to build that, we had to fundamentally
start with creating the database, then we
had to create.
wallets and we have to create the
mechanism for measuring in real time
across everyone who's listening.
So we do we do a per second analysis over
And we make and then we aggregate that
bundle per minute and then we pay it.
And it works.
It just works, right?
We spent a year building this and it
And that's the cool thing.
when you're a new user to podfans, it's
very simple, you join and in the
onboarding process, you either have an
existing wallet, or you don't.
If you do, we just verify against your
wallet, off you go.
The learning curve is great because you
already understand what a payment system
is, with micro payment and what a wallet
So now you're just understanding how my
And you know, the intricacies of my
platform compared to other platforms.
If you haven't got a wallet, and that's,
you know, again, we have to reach those
people who don't understand this.
then we've got to educate you on the
onboarding as to how do you get a wallet?
And we do that.
And then we put in 10,000 sats into your
wallet as a part of the process and we
reward you and we're trying to teach you
as well we call learn and earn.
So we're trying to say to you look, you've
got your wallet you've joined here's some
tokens here's some sats in your wallet.
Now give us your email address or pick
your first five favorite podcasts or
listen to your first show.
and we will reward you for completing
tasks that add up to 10,000 sats.
So when you get into the system and you
click play, it works.
You don't have to go, Oh God, do I have to
get a credit card out now?
Oh, I don't want to do that.
I don't know these people.
We also, as I said, we reward time and
attention so you can earn by being an
So let's say it was a fan of your podcast,
I could be sharing it.
I could be boosting it, which is a comment
with a payment.
I could be clipping in a piece and putting
that out to my social network.
Each one of those is a verb, boost, clip,
And we've put a gamification engine inside
of pod fans.
So we know there's 30 verbs.
We know what exactly you do when you're in
the platform and we can allocate points to
So yes, you pay if you choose to listen to
a podcast, you don't have to, but you also
can earn by being an active fan of a
So we think that two way value for value
is what we've built and that's pod fans.
the element of rewarding the attention of
a listener as well.
I think that's really, really useful.
Even the gamification element of anything
is always so powerful.
And I do think that podcasting is yet to
really capitalize on that.
We see words like engagement banded about
so much, but no one really does anything
So I really like this idea that you've
And a lot of people are going to start to
say things like, okay, well, actually
I listen to most of my podcasts on the go.
I listen to most of my shows when I'm
doing something else.
And it's usually on a smart device,
usually on a phone or whatever.
So how do you handle that?
Are you available mobile?
Can people listen using mobile and using
Yeah, the good news is we've created
what's called a progressive web app PWA.
And all that means is browser based.
It's not in the iOS store or the Google
We don't pay Apple a 30% tax for any
transaction, which is why we did it.
And it means it works across iPad, laptop
and mobile in the same way.
And we just size the screen down to based
on the size of screen.
So that's really cool.
The one thing I was going to slightly
change one thing there was a report this
week Mark just bear with me.
Ashley Carmen from Bloomberg put out a
report saying that podcasters now
beginning to fake their numbers in terms
And why are they doing that?
Well, fake until you make it is an
expression that you hear many
entrepreneurs being told to say but
reason they're doing that is because they
want to get that $25 CPM.
Oh, how many how many people download your
Oh, yeah, a couple of 1000 people.
All right, well, we'll sign you up.
There you go.
You can have some advertising.
And then they find out it's a couple of
So that is something that is quite common,
I'm afraid in the in the community.
And also, we all know if you use something
like an Apple podcast, it auto downloads,
that doesn't mean you auto listen.
So you could have a back catalog of
hundreds of podcasts you've never listened
But that gets reported back as a download
and therefore the advertiser thinks, oh, I
should be paying for that.
The last part of that mark is also we
don't know how far along in a podcast the
person's listened to.
So let's say there's three adverts, the
one at the beginning, middle and end.
We all know the one at the end generally
doesn't get listened to.
We know the one in the middle probably
If it doesn't get skipped, it will get
But we can't 100% know for certain.
Now with pod fans, we know for certain,
because we know exactly how many minutes
you've listened to, at what point you
So we've got three metrics that we've
worked with a company in Canada who have a
similar thinking called Bumper.
And it's time listened, percent completed
and value paid.
And you bring those three metrics together
and you can roll that up to a creator so
they know exactly how long each listener
listened, but also in aggregate how...
where people dropped off in your episode.
You also know how much value was paid for
And those three, when you go back to an
advertiser, if you still want to put
advertising into your own podcast, you
And then the advertiser is going to be
confident that yeah, actually, you know
80% of your listeners listen to that
Great, I'm going to continue paying it.
So again, we've got this old download
We've got this fake it until you make it
and use a number model.
And again, that's all changing as well.
The way that we're doing micro payments,
it'll be not just good for creators
linking to their fans, but it also be good
for advertisers trying to be 100% certain
that their adverts are even being listened
It's such a challenge that because I think
this is responsible for a lot of the
downside of the boom that we saw.
So where we are now basically in the
industry, you know, the renewals of big
brands looking at partnerships and looking
at even programmatic and so on where
they're doing big ad buys across various
networks or different types of show.
You often find renewals are so much more
challenging than the original sale because
you're absolutely right.
We can report on downloads, but that.
That was only sexy when podcasting was
really, really new and it was the only
But now those same people are walking into
the meetings and saying, actually, all
right, downloads are fine, but what did we
And you can't you can't constantly just
use brand positioning as the answer to
And we know that's happening.
We see that at the highest levels of
We see that at the highest levels of ad
And we see it reported very, very often,
which, as you said, leads to what we saw
today through Ashley.
So yeah, I get it.
I think it's fascinating.
Now I think the thing that I would say is
the indie producer, so the person that's
really, really busy, the person that is,
you know, getting the 50 or the 100
download, you know, good loyal audience,
but actually, they've not got that much
What's this going to do for them?
Is this a challenge from a timing
Do they need to put piles of time into
working with something like pod fans?
Or how does this accommodate those?
So we we've ingested probably about
500,000 podcasts and we'll increase that
over the next few months.
Obviously, all 4 million aren't what we
We talked about anchor earlier.
So but we'll get all the best podcasts we
think they're out there.
If yours is one of those podcasts, all you
have to do is then claim it.
And when you claim it, you get access to a
backend dashboard for pod fans.
A pod fan sets a default value for every
podcast out there at 100 sats per minute.
So an hour show is six thousand sats.
What's that in real money?
So it's not a big problem.
So once you've got a value for every
episode, you as the creator, once you've
claimed your show, can go and change that
You can say, oh, OK, I want my show to be
10 sats per minute or a thousand sats per
minute or zero.
You can pick what you want.
In the value for value model that will
just change at the front end and the
listener will go Oh, that's the new value
that's set by the creator.
But in the value for value model, I as the
listener have that final say I can still
change that value as well.
So as a creator, no, you don't need to do
much you go in and check that the podcast
that you that's yours is there you claim
it and verify it and it has to be verified
And then once you've done that, you set
your own values and then you market that
out to your listeners that this is what we
do and your listeners then have choices,
pay it or not pay it right.
But there isn't much more you have to do.
There's no, Oh my God, do I need to know
how to do a tag in the middle at minute
one with a DAI link here and something
else and do I need to rub my head and
scratch my tummy to do this?
No, it's fairly self-explanatory because
you've got to, you get given a wallet when
So it, you know,
It's the same for creators as it is for
You just need a wallet to be receiving
your sats into.
That's what I like about this concept is
that, well, like we said earlier,
simplifying the complexity of all of these
mechanisms and moving parts that are
required to benefit from blockchain
payments and so on and so forth.
I think that's the real strength behind
the scenes of this is that I can set it
And I know the word wallet, I know that
works, but I don't generally have to worry
So I commend you on that, my friend.
I think that's fantastic work.
What's the timeline for pod fans then?
So this is, we're here, we're at 28th of
2023, what's the status of pod fans now?
What's the next six months look like to
wrap this up?
So earlier this week, we took off the
It's now a beta product.
It was an alpha.
And so it's mobile, it's desktop, it's in
all those screens in between.
And yeah, please go and use it.
We've also built a really, I mean, talking
about paying SATS, Mark, we've built a
feedback model where if you give us a bug
report, we pay you in SATS as a thank you.
So we give you some SATS for reporting
If you give us a brand new feature
give you some slats as well for that.
So again, there's ways of getting earning
But fundamentally, yeah, you can go in
You can use it.
Now what we are doing is increasing the
We're building this.
We talked about it very tangently.
We're building a new music element to it
So lots of independent music artists are
now being said, I don't really like
putting my music on Apple and Spotify.
I don't really make any money, but they're
beginning to create RSS feeds for their
and uploading those to the index and then
we can download those and using a payment
model value for value, they can get paid
directly by their fans and Ashley Ainsley
Costello, sorry, an artist on who's done
this said on Twitter or X that she made 20
or dollars when she did it across 60
streaming platforms and she made $400 in
one day doing the same thing using SATs.
artists are beginning to understand and
artists more than podcasters have a deeper
connection to their fans.
I mean, we all love to think our fans love
us, but realistically they are a little
If we went away, they'd go away.
They wouldn't chase us down and find us.
But if a music artist goes, you're like,
Oh my God, I love you.
Where have you gone?
And, and their commitment to music is much
The value for value model works really,
really well with music.
So we're adding a music element very
shortly to it as well.
fascinating work as someone that builds
software, my friend, I know how difficult
this is to pull off.
And yeah, come on, commend you on the
work, but also just the way that you lead
in the thinking as well.
So yeah, absolutely commendable workers
And I think everyone should just give that
give this a whirl, even if I'm always a
fan of trying things anyway, I think even
if you don't stick with it, I'm not saying
that would be the case with pod fans, but
please, anyone listening, just go over
there and try this and you can find that
So I heartily recommend that you do that.
Well, Sam, it's always a pleasure.
I know you've held an event this week with
James, which I'm sure was absolutely
I was out of the country for it.
So I'm sorry I couldn't be there, but if
it's anything like the Manchester one, I
know it would have been a roaring success.
And yeah, look forward to seeing you in
person soon, my friend.
And we're going to a Liverpool game
So that'll be even more fun.
That sounds good.
Speaking of that, I appreciate that.
I cannot wait for that.
I'm looking forward to that.
If you would like to send Sam and I some
beer money for that, you can do that at
mark.live slash support.
It's like we planned that, Sam.
It's like this smooth segue into sending
Thanks for watching!
Any industry events outside of your own?
No, no, I mean, I think we're coming to
the end of those.
So we did our own one and I also went to
the British Podcast Awards this week and
gave out an award.
The next big event, Mark, for me, and
maybe you might be there, is the one in
the LA podcast movement.
I will be there.
It'll be the first time back on the West
Coast since COVID because of the family
So I'm excited for that.
We actually booked the hotel.
We booked the flights.
We are there.
So I'm excited for that.
And for you listening out there, if you
are interested, go to podfans.fm.
And if you've got any questions, just get
in touch with us on the usual channels.
The Twitter's all, I'm not gonna call it
X, the Twitter's the best way to do that.
And I'm at MrAsquith and Sam.
You're over on Twitter as well, aren't
at Sam Sethi or at JoinPodFans.
Just come and ping me and I'm more than
happy to give you an answer to whatever
question you have.
Amazing stuff and for you listening, enjoy
Thank you for tuning in.
It's always a pleasure until the next
Keep on doing what you do.
Keep sharing your voice, your thoughts
with the world and look after yourself.
Bye bye for now.