Podcast Monetization in the Future with Sam Sethi

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What does the future of podcast

monetization look like?

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And in particular, what does the future

look like for the independent creator?

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It's something that a lot of podcasters

concern themselves with, especially in the

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world of minimum revenue guarantees and

minimum download thresholds for

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advertisements and big words being thrown

around like programmatic advertising.

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The good news is that as an indie, maybe

we don't need to worry about any of that

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so much.

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That is what we're going to dive into

today here on the podcast accelerator.

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I'm your host, Mark Asquith, and I'm

joined by a great friend and a wonderful

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industry thinker and an actual industry

doer, of which I believe there should be

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more.

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But we'll talk about that on another

session.

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We are going to talk all things value for

value.

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We're going to talk all things

monetization.

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We're going to talk all things the future

for the indie creator.

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And we're going to talk about the brand

new platform called

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hot fans.

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Welcome to the show, Mr.

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Sam Sethi How are you my friend?

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Wow, I need to have one of you just lead

in me, go in front of me in rooms and just

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introduce me.

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That'll be amazing.

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Toastmaster.

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like a David Brent thing.

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We'll get a nice boom box on my shoulder.

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We'll play a little bit of Tina Turner.

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You're the best.

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We'll just any room you need, my friend,

I'm there.

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I'm ready.

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I'm ready.

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That's it.

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We're done.

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Right.

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Hello.

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Hello.

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I don't like doing this because I know

that everyone really should know you like

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I know you because I know the fantastic

work that you do in the industry.

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But I want to get to some of the cool

stuff that you're up to with, with the

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product that you've got and some of the

thinking that you do, which I think is

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vital, but I'm going to do the thing that

everyone else does at the end.

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I'm going to say, Sam, tell us what you

do.

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And importantly, give us your bloody

website, mate.

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Okay, what I do, I co-host Pod News Weekly

with James Cridland.

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We've been doing that for about three

years.

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And so that's great fun.

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It allows me to interview cool people and

talk with James about what's going on in

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the industry on a weekly basis.

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And it's so, so hectic every week.

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Beginning of the week, I think, Oh God,

what we're going to talk about this week.

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And by the end of the week, it's like,

Jesus, cut that we haven't got enough

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time.

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And invariably, the Pod News Weekly

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We tried to make it a half hour podcast at

the beginning.

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It's invariably 90 minutes on average.

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It's ridiculously long.

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So apologies to everyone about that.

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And then on the side, just to keep myself

busy, I've got a new podcasting platform

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called podvans.fm.

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I love it.

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I want to dig into that in just a second.

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And before we do that, though, I do, I

want to set the scene.

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I think that pod news weekly 30 minute

aspiration is actually a really good place

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to start because that has been the

situation in podcasting.

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I mean, I want to say at least for the

last five or six years, it was felt a

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little different before that.

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It was there was a lot going on, but it

didn't.

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It wasn't I don't want to say mainstream,

but it wasn't as close to mainstream as it

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is now, which then incurred the fact that,

you know,

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wasn't as much money coming through it

because of that there was much less

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interest and then there was this startup

boom there was this money boom there was

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this boom of acquisitions and everything

just seemed to go crazy: 2017

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things started to change so as someone

that's really at the forefront of the news

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and the response to the news every single

week it's easy for me to sit here and say

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things have changed things are slowing

down and for other people to comment and

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say things are slowing down but like is it

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Is that true?

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It doesn't feel like what you're saying

matches with some of the narrative that we

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see online.

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It seems as busy as ever.

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I think what we're seeing is that people

are still actively involved in podcasting.

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Yeah, there is a slowdown.

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I mean, we all know that COVID resulted in

people sat at home bit bored, got a mic

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out, started a podcast anchor gave it away

for free.

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We got a influx of podcasts that you know,

let's be honest, some were not very good

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and some were okay.

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But but it wasn't

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professionalizing it.

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Now what we've seen post COVID, of course,

is a lot of that's gone away, people have

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gone back to work.

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And that's fine.

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We've seen also companies now the stock

markets are beginning to say to companies

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like a cast and others look, oh, you,

you've got some money.

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Now we want to see some profit.

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Yeah, great that you are still revenue

generating.

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But Spotify, a cast, podimo, all these

others, let's see the money.

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And so there's been some downsizing of

people and cuts.

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I think the exclusives that were out

there, it was a good idea to start off

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with.

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Let's get, you know, big high profile

names, see if we can generate some numbers

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around it in terms of people and that will

lead to more revenue and profitability.

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Hopefully didn't quite work.

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But I think again, looking at global,

there have been some amazing alternatives

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where there's actually been a very clever

strategy.

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So the news agents been brilliant.

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I mean, the numbers you guys are hitting

are knocking it out of the park, but also,

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you know, look at.

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The rest is, you know, Goldhanger

Productions podcast.

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They've got, the rest is politics, the

rest is football, and they're doing really

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well with all of their titles.

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And I think crowd networks, there's a lot

of good solid companies who are producing

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good solid podcasts that are generating

real income and real revenue.

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Now, what does that mean going down the

long tail?

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Yeah, it's still hard work.

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I mean, you know, most people are, you

now, if they're getting above: 1000

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listeners, they're still in the top

quartile, right.

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So podcasting is not quite yet, you know,

s of: 1000

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But it is, I think an industry that's

gone, I liken it to remember web one.io

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when everyone had crazy valuations, and

there was a pop and everyone went, Oh,

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well, that's the internet over and done

with in law, let's all go home.

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And then suddenly web two came and it

stabilized and real business models

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occurred and real revenue occurred.

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And we are where we are today.

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And I think that's exactly what podcasting

is.

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It's, it's seen its early days.

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It's seen its massive pop rise with crazy

money coming into the industry.

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And now there's been a downturn and then

slowly, I think 23, 24, the end of 23,

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early 24, we're beginning to see proper

businesses and proper podcasting models.

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different revenue models, but proper

models.

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And so, yeah, I think we're a good

industry.

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It's okay.

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Yeah, I hear that.

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And I love the comparison to web one and

web 2.0.

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And we're going to talk about web 3.0.

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And I'm always amazed how it's taking so

many hosting companies in podcasting to

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get rid of their web 2.0 interfaces.

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And some of them still got them.

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You know, we all like stuff that looks

nostalgic, but time for an upgrade,

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people.

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Let's just move ahead with that one.

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And I think that's representative of where

the industry was, though.

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There was no real need to shift.

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And you know, all sort of flippancy aside

with that one, it was a genuine, that was

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a genuine issue.

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There was no honest reason to shift

because, you know, you think about the

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creator economy and you think about the

way that that's always worked and that's

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always generated revenue.

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And suddenly you get something.

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And I don't want to be the guy that

invokes cereal, but I've got to do it.

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You know, you get something like cereal

that puts podcasting on the map for the

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consumerism in a much bigger way.

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And.

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you know, the boom can be directly

attributed to that kind of feeling where

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everyone started to look at podcasting as

a media, as an industry.

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And I completely agree with it now that

we've come out of the end of what appears

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to be that talent boom, which, you know, a

lot of people say that was a silly move,

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you know, let's why, why acquire Joe

Rogan's the best example, if you're not

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going to be profitable.

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I do think there was a lot of strategy in

that around just acquiring users.

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And I don't think there was necessarily a

need for profit.

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I think it was a loss leader in many ways.

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Um, and it's.

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I think to a lot of people in the

industry, it hurt their feelings a little

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bit that podcasting was like the loss

leader for a platform.

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And again, I understand that because we're

close to the industry.

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But what interests me about the way that

you think and the way that you do things,

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and I think we think pretty similarly on a

lot of these issues, is that podcasting is

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sort of bundled in now.

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Everything that is on-demand audio is sort

of called podcasting now.

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And it's not, you know, if I go and watch

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a Marvel movie, whether that's on Disney

or whether that's in a movie theater,

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that's not bundled together with a home

video or something necessarily on YouTube.

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And I feel like podcasting has got that

yet to come where, you know, crowd,

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global, wondering, whoever's producing top

tier multifaceted IP that happens to be

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delivered via a podcast to start with,

eventually starts to sort of not become

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podcasts because

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we feel that the creator economy is where

podcast is.

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And we saw that last week or it was last

week, wasn't it?

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With the new Batman original from Spotify

that just doesn't have the word.

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It's an audio original, audio drama,

whatever the wording was, it just not got

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the word podcast.

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So do you think there's a challenge there?

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And well, I want to bring this back to the

independence in a bit because I think this

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is where pod fans work so well.

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But do you think that is, is that pie in

the sky thinking or is there something in

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that logic around why are we bundling

everything now under podcast?

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Well, it's become the Hoover of the words,

right?

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So when you say I'm going to go and Hoover

the lounge, you're not talking about

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getting the brand Hoover.

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It could be Dyson, right?

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It's the generic word.

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Google, we don't say search, we say we're

just gonna Google it, right?

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I mean, so I think podcasting has taken

that generic mantle of anything that's

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audio video that I can consume digitally

online.

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And the

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pragmatist, and I'll put myself in that

camp, you know, would say, well, it's not

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really because it hasn't got RSS.

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But look, 99% of people who are what we

call the normies are not bothered whether

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it has RSS attached to it, right?

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They open up Spotify, they open up

YouTube, they consume it.

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And to them, it's a podcast.

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So therefore it is.

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And we just have to get over ourselves.

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I think where we will evolve possibly is

new words will come out.

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maybe as you said, we talk about films,

then we talk about DVDs, and we talk about

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on demand, and we talk about streaming in

the video homeworld, you know, Netflix.

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But equally, I just said, I'm going to

watch a film on Netflix.

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And it doesn't really have to have that

connotation of a cinema attached.

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So I think language is loose and flexible.

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And I don't think we should get too hung

up on it.

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But I think as podcasters go, yeah, I

mean, I think

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think it's I'm I was against YouTube was

against audible in many ways, you know,

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calling them podcasts.

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I've sort of flipped I've gone like, you

know what, let it be because if we get a

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secondary glow from the word podcast have

been picked up by some 18 year old or 25

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year old who's just getting into it.

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And then they go, Oh, what other podcasts

can I use or listen to or watch?

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I'm happy.

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They will they will eventually

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get their education curve to where we want

them to be, but they have to start

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somewhere.

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Yeah, I felt that way about Anker back in

the day.

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You know, you get a lot of the incumbents

having a real good cry about Anker.

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You know, well, Anker's coming along and

it's free.

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And if you're free, you know, if it's

free, then you're the product, which is

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ironic, given, you know, that many of the

hosting platforms have freemium, which is

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wild.

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And I'd sort of treated that.

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That's how I treated Anker as a, in my

mind was it's just a freemium product that

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doesn't have a premium tier and guess who

was the premium tier?

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You know, here we are at Captivate.

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My logic was always the same that if

someone, I would rather someone start a

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podcast using anchor and it was free and

then realized, oh, do you know what?

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Okay, I enjoy this.

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Now it's time for something different and

Captivate was an option for them.

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Not even saying that we were the only one.

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I would just rather we were in that mix

rather than them just say, oh no, I've got

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to pay money for this thing that I might

not enjoy doing.

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And yeah, it's a...

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I feel exactly the same way about that.

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So I'm with you on that.

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I think that the evolution and the halo

that we all feel with regards to the word

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podcasting, taking on various different

meanings.

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I'm all right with that.

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I think that's OK.

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And there's merit to there's merit to open

in that market, because then to bring it

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back to the revenue stuff, which I really

want to dig into, you can.

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You can't bring more money in if you are

not making more people aware of what

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podcasting is.

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And if this is the way that it really goes

mainstream, then we can't.

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I don't think we can be that sad about it.

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So let's, let's switch up to the creators

then.

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So let's talk about pod fans.

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You know, even, even now, a lot of people

still think that monetizing a podcast as

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an indie with.

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You know, a hundred downloads, a hundred

listeners.

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is super tough.

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You know, they think it's difficult to get

sponsorships regardless of whether they go

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direct and they've got a super niche

audience or not.

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And many people are put off by that.

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There are other ways.

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All right.

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So we know about that.

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You've been a big pioneer of value for

value.

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And pod fans is there, this new product

that you're launching this week into the

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public domain properly is right at the

bleeding edge of that.

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So can you spend a second or two just

educating the audience on, okay, what is

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this whole value for value thing?

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What is pod fans?

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How does it work?

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And actually, why should we be interested

in this?

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Yeah, before I do, sorry, before I do, let

me take a quick step back because it looks

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blame why value for value is important.

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So when I was at Netscape, I was the

product manager, we created the browser

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HTTP was the way that people learned about

the language.

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And I remember going out and saying to

people, oh, by the way, Mark, it's called

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a browser.

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It's called a URL has starts with HTTP and

people were going never catch on.

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don't understand what you're talking

about, first of all, and secondly, you'll

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never catch on.

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It did, as we all know.

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So new vocabulary is always hard to get

into the lexicon of people's minds.

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The second part of that was Mark

Andreessen, my boss never created a micro

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payment system.

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So in the absence of it, we got hearts,

likes, thumbs up as sentiment analysis.

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So people wanting to tell the creator that

they like what they've done, that was all

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they could give them.

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There was no form of payment.

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Then the creators went, well, I need

money.

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I can't keep doing this for free.

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So that they ended up creating advertising

around the content.

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And that's where we got to today.

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Now fast forward, and we have something

called Bitcoin.

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Now, most people rolled their eyes the

minute you say Bitcoin.

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And if I say it's a digital wallet, and

it's called a micro payment, and they call

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Satoshi's.

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Again, these are all new words, people

look at you going that'll never catch on.

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It's all Swahili.

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I don't know what you're talking about,

Sam.

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Well, as I said, people didn't understand

what HTTP was either.

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So there are about 50 million people using

digital wallets today.

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So it's not, you know, small chump change,

there are a good number of people out

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there.

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And it's slowly catching on.

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We're seeing the numbers, you know,

through various wallets increasing.

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So what is a micro payment?

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What is value for value?

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So a micro payment is 100 millionth of the

Bitcoin, it has to be that small.

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: 00:15:31

And why do you need it at all when you've

got PayPal and Stripe and Visa and

309

: 00:15:35

MasterCard and Apple Pay?

310

: 00:15:37

Well, because all of those take payment

gateway fees.

311

: 00:15:41

And because they take those fees, if I

just wanted to give you Mark 50 P or a

312

: 00:15:45

pound for this show, I couldn't do it

because actually most of that money would

313

: 00:15:48

go to the payment gateway provider, even

if they accepted that payment, because

314

: 00:15:53

most won't even accept those small

payments.

315

: 00:15:55

So

316

: 00:15:56

This micro payment model came about and

that's the first part of it.

317

: 00:16:00

Now value for value is just a simple new

economic model.

318

: 00:16:03

It doesn't have to include micro payments

and Bitcoin.

319

: 00:16:08

Value for value is simply you mark set a

value for the content you're creating and

320

: 00:16:14

means the listener can agree with the

value you set or disagree and if I agree,

321

: 00:16:18

I just pay it and if I disagree, I can

make it higher.

322

: 00:16:22

I could say Mark you're stupid.

323

: 00:16:23

boy, this is the best show ever.

324

: 00:16:25

I'm doubling or tripling the amount I want

to pay you or I'm sorry, Mark, I'm a

325

: 00:16:29

newbie.

326

: 00:16:29

I haven't got quite into your show.

327

: 00:16:31

So I don't want to pay you.

328

: 00:16:32

I'm going to pay you nothing now.

329

: 00:16:34

I'm going to listen for free.

330

: 00:16:35

But when I become a fan, I will trip over

into paying you.

331

: 00:16:39

So value for value is a very simple model.

332

: 00:16:41

We have it in real world.

333

: 00:16:43

You know, if somebody walks into a shop,

they see a sale ticket price, that's the

334

: 00:16:47

offer price, they can legally go to the

counter and offer a different price, but

335

: 00:16:51

we just too British, and we don't do it.

336

: 00:16:54

But bartering is that way.

337

: 00:16:55

It's a value for value is a very simple

real time model.

338

: 00:16:58

Now, what's nice about it with podcasting

is because you get a digital wallet and

339

: 00:17:03

you get these micro payments in them,

think of them as tokens, then, you know,

340

: 00:17:08

it's a direct payment between you, the

listener and the creator.

341

: 00:17:12

There is no third party.

342

: 00:17:13

There's no middleman.

343

: 00:17:15

There is no I'm going to do, you know, go

up here and I'm going to hold your money

344

: 00:17:19

until I'm comfortable.

345

: 00:17:20

There's no none of that.

346

: 00:17:21

So direct payments.

347

: 00:17:23

which is the root of what Web Wando 1.0

was.

348

: 00:17:27

You know, if you remember Linewire,

Napster, Skype, it was a peer-to-peer

349

: 00:17:31

system.

350

: 00:17:32

It was Web2 that made it client server

again.

351

: 00:17:34

And yes, you mentioned it earlier, Mark.

352

: 00:17:37

So I'll say it again.

353

: 00:17:37

Web3 is very much about decentralization

and peer-to-peer monetization.

354

: 00:17:44

And so we're going back to the roots of

the web and value for value is a new

355

: 00:17:49

economic model that really will benefit

podcasters

356

: 00:17:54

And sorry, Mark, this is the last part.

357

: 00:17:55

So the average CPM rate for an advert is

about $25.

358

: 00:18:00

If you're a creator with less than a

couple of you know, 100 users, you're not

359

: 00:18:04

going to get that $25 CPM rate, you're

just not.

360

: 00:18:08

So what can you do, you can go and get a

sponsor if you're lucky, maybe you might

361

: 00:18:11

get a few of your mates listening.

362

: 00:18:14

Great.

363

: 00:18:14

And who might want to pay you buy your

coffee or whatever it may be.

364

: 00:18:18

But again,

365

: 00:18:20

Kevin Kelly's seminal blog post was a

thousand true fans and all he said was

366

: 00:18:25

look, stop chasing millions of people.

367

: 00:18:27

None of us are Joe Rogan.

368

: 00:18:28

So if you've got a couple of hundred

people willing to pay you 50p an episode,

369

: 00:18:32

a pound an episode, that covers your

hosting costs and gives you a little bit

370

: 00:18:36

of money.

371

: 00:18:36

Now scale that up to the likes of a news

agent at global with 10 million users and

372

: 00:18:41

you know, then the revenue numbers

outweigh anything you'll get through

373

: 00:18:45

advertising.

374

: 00:18:46

But we're just in the early days.

375

: 00:18:48

And so when this

376

: 00:18:49

crosses over and it will, then people will

probably not want to be interrupted by

377

: 00:18:54

advertising and they will willingly pay to

listen to content that they're a fan of.

378

: 00:19:02

We're starting to see that shift as well.

379

: 00:19:03

We're starting to see the trend of people

saying that podcasts have too many adverts

380

: 00:19:09

because that is the only way when you have

a large audience and the only extra thing

381

: 00:19:15

that you can do outside of listener

support, so through subscriptions,

382

: 00:19:18

memberships, or whether it's taking tips

as you alluded to earlier, the only way is

383

: 00:19:22

to simply insert one more ad slot, and

then again and again and again and again.

384

: 00:19:26

So you do start to see now that people are

starting to just say...

385

: 00:19:31

Hmm.

386

: 00:19:33

This is becoming a bit of an issue.

387

: 00:19:34

And then, you know, conversely, what you

then get is the model that you hear

388

: 00:19:37

throughout, you know, everywhere.

389

: 00:19:39

Every major production company is doing

this where listen, add free.

390

: 00:19:42

If you give us money per month and what I

like about the way this works.

391

: 00:19:48

And I'm always a I'm massively into new

tech.

392

: 00:19:52

I'm always looking and playing and

tinkering right in the earliest stages of

393

: 00:19:56

new tech.

394

: 00:19:57

And then as someone that runs a hosting

company, I'm always thinking, actually,

395

: 00:20:01

When do you bring this to the masses?

396

: 00:20:03

And when are the people that aren't in to

tech going to be ready for this?

397

: 00:20:08

And I agree, you know, I think eventually

people will get on board with this

398

: 00:20:12

thinking.

399

: 00:20:14

Because what I see as a major issue that

this begins to solve is that if I am an

400

: 00:20:22

indie creator, let's assume that I've

devoted my entire creator experience to

401

: 00:20:28

the Kevin Kelly logic, which I totally

agree with.

402

: 00:20:30

I've got my thousand true fans.

403

: 00:20:33

How long has it taken me to get those fans

to become true fans enough that they want

404

: 00:20:39

to pay me?

405

: 00:20:39

Like that entire, if you think about it in

marketing terms, as we always do, people

406

: 00:20:43

like you and I, that conversion period,

that sales period is long.

407

: 00:20:48

They listen to X amount of podcasts, a

number of episodes, and then they've got

408

: 00:20:52

to discover that they like you, and then

they've got to really like you, and then

409

: 00:20:55

they've got to be willing to give you

something.

410

: 00:20:58

and then give you something regularly

every single month.

411

: 00:21:01

Like that sales process is tough.

412

: 00:21:04

Does this go some way to solving that

problem because it is such a.

413

: 00:21:09

I don't want to say transient, because I

think that oversimplifies it and

414

: 00:21:11

diminishes it a little bit, but it's very

fleeting.

415

: 00:21:14

The decision, if that makes any sense.

416

: 00:21:17

So, so what we currently have today is

what I call the Chinese buffet mode.

417

: 00:21:22

So let's talk about Spotify or, or

subscriptions on Apple, right?

418

: 00:21:27

Pay me in advance for something I've not

consumed.

419

: 00:21:31

And if I don't drop a new episode, still

keep paying me because I want you to

420

: 00:21:36

because that's all that a subscription can

do.

421

: 00:21:39

Whereas with a value for value model, it's

a per minute payment basis.

422

: 00:21:43

So let's say

423

: 00:21:44

you start listening to a podcast and you

only listen to 20 minutes of an hour's

424

: 00:21:48

show, that's all you pay 20 minutes worth.

425

: 00:21:51

If you're listening to a book, exactly the

same thing model applies for value for

426

: 00:21:57

value.

427

: 00:21:57

I've listened to two chapters.

428

: 00:21:59

I don't know how many books I've gotten

audible that I've got a third of the way

429

: 00:22:03

through and never listened to all of it.

430

: 00:22:05

The same works of video.

431

: 00:22:07

And most excitingly, this model is also

now working for music as well.

432

: 00:22:11

And that's one of the new things that's

come out.

433

: 00:22:14

So you might only listen to 10 tracks

instead of listening to 50 tracks, but why

434

: 00:22:19

pay for the 500 tracks in advance that you

never listened to?

435

: 00:22:26

problem with that is if anyone listens to

Meat Loaf, each song's going to cost them

436

: 00:22:29

45 quid.

437

: 00:22:31

Oh, if anyone listens to Meatloaf, you

just shoot them.

438

: 00:22:37

I'm going to tell that to the karaoke

group at the local pub because on Friday

439

: 00:22:40

night, they get wild up there, mate, for a

little bit of meat.

440

: 00:22:43

But no, I like that.

441

: 00:22:45

I like that.

442

: 00:22:46

I'm interested in the way that technology

thinkers like yourself will take what can

443

: 00:22:52

be very abstract concepts like value for

value, like, you know, Bitcoin, like the

444

: 00:22:57

Satoshi element of Bitcoin and do what all

the good people really have been doing

445

: 00:23:04

since day one, which is putting technology

446

: 00:23:07

that doesn't feel scary in between us and

that what appears to be the backend

447

: 00:23:13

technology.

448

: 00:23:13

So tell us a bit about Podfans because

that's exactly what this does.

449

: 00:23:18

It's a well thought out product from good

thinkers to simplify something that can be

450

: 00:23:25

complex for the creator.

451

: 00:23:27

So tell us all about it.

452

: 00:23:27

Tell us what Podfans does.

453

: 00:23:29

And really what was the idea behind it?

454

: 00:23:32

Where did it come from?

455

: 00:23:34

Sure.

456

: 00:23:34

So, complexity is fail simplicity is one

of my favorite sayings.

457

: 00:23:38

And that's a guy called Edward De Bono

came up with that.

458

: 00:23:42

When we started pod fans, there was no

point in trying to replicate Apple and

459

: 00:23:46

Spotify, right?

460

: 00:23:47

Just a subscription based model.

461

: 00:23:49

We would fail.

462

: 00:23:50

And when I started pod fans, probably a

year to 18 months ago, Bitcoin was just

463

: 00:23:56

forming the Lightning Network, which is

this fast real time payment system was

464

: 00:24:00

just forming.

465

: 00:24:01

So these were new ideas.

466

: 00:24:03

Core part of it is I firmly believe that

people's time and attention has value.

467

: 00:24:08

And that value is I will only pay for what

I consume and I'll only pay for the time I

468

: 00:24:14

listen rather than pay it all in advance.

469

: 00:24:17

So when we found that this micro payments

existed and it was possible to do a per

470

: 00:24:22

minute payment system for digital content

of any sort, that was the embryo for

471

: 00:24:27

starting pod fans.

472

: 00:24:29

So RSS, as we all know, is an open

ecosystem.

473

: 00:24:33

You can consume anyone's RSS unless

they've blocked it or made it exclusive.

474

: 00:24:38

And on that basis, we decided that we

wouldn't have advertising as the

475

: 00:24:43

monetization model for creators, but we

would have this peer-to-peer direct

476

: 00:24:47

payment system from fan to creator.

477

: 00:24:51

So to build that, we had to fundamentally

start with creating the database, then we

478

: 00:24:55

had to create.

479

: 00:24:56

wallets and we have to create the

mechanism for measuring in real time

480

: 00:25:01

across everyone who's listening.

481

: 00:25:04

So we do we do a per second analysis over

the API.

482

: 00:25:09

And we make and then we aggregate that

bundle per minute and then we pay it.

483

: 00:25:12

And it works.

484

: 00:25:13

It just works, right?

485

: 00:25:14

We spent a year building this and it

works.

486

: 00:25:17

And that's the cool thing.

487

: 00:25:18

So now

488

: 00:25:20

when you're a new user to podfans, it's

very simple, you join and in the

489

: 00:25:24

onboarding process, you either have an

existing wallet, or you don't.

490

: 00:25:28

If you do, we just verify against your

wallet, off you go.

491

: 00:25:31

The learning curve is great because you

already understand what a payment system

492

: 00:25:35

is, with micro payment and what a wallet

is.

493

: 00:25:36

So now you're just understanding how my

platform works.

494

: 00:25:39

And you know, the intricacies of my

platform compared to other platforms.

495

: 00:25:43

If you haven't got a wallet, and that's,

you know, again, we have to reach those

496

: 00:25:47

people who don't understand this.

497

: 00:25:49

then we've got to educate you on the

onboarding as to how do you get a wallet?

498

: 00:25:54

And we do that.

499

: 00:25:55

And then we put in 10,000 sats into your

wallet as a part of the process and we

500

: 00:26:00

reward you and we're trying to teach you

as well we call learn and earn.

501

: 00:26:04

So we're trying to say to you look, you've

got your wallet you've joined here's some

502

: 00:26:08

tokens here's some sats in your wallet.

503

: 00:26:10

Now give us your email address or pick

your first five favorite podcasts or

504

: 00:26:16

listen to your first show.

505

: 00:26:17

and we will reward you for completing

tasks that add up to 10,000 sats.

506

: 00:26:23

So when you get into the system and you

click play, it works.

507

: 00:26:27

You don't have to go, Oh God, do I have to

get a credit card out now?

508

: 00:26:29

Oh, I don't want to do that.

509

: 00:26:30

I don't know these people.

510

: 00:26:32

We also, as I said, we reward time and

attention so you can earn by being an

511

: 00:26:37

active user.

512

: 00:26:38

So let's say it was a fan of your podcast,

Mark.

513

: 00:26:42

I could be sharing it.

514

: 00:26:43

I could be boosting it, which is a comment

with a payment.

515

: 00:26:47

I could be clipping in a piece and putting

that out to my social network.

516

: 00:26:50

Each one of those is a verb, boost, clip,

share.

517

: 00:26:54

And we've put a gamification engine inside

of pod fans.

518

: 00:26:57

So we know there's 30 verbs.

519

: 00:26:59

We know what exactly you do when you're in

the platform and we can allocate points to

520

: 00:27:03

that.

521

: 00:27:04

So yes, you pay if you choose to listen to

a podcast, you don't have to, but you also

522

: 00:27:10

can earn by being an active fan of a

podcast.

523

: 00:27:13

So we think that two way value for value

model.

524

: 00:27:16

is what we've built and that's pod fans.

525

: 00:27:21

the element of rewarding the attention of

a listener as well.

526

: 00:27:28

I think that's really, really useful.

527

: 00:27:30

Even the gamification element of anything

is always so powerful.

528

: 00:27:33

And I do think that podcasting is yet to

really capitalize on that.

529

: 00:27:37

We see words like engagement banded about

so much, but no one really does anything

530

: 00:27:41

with it.

531

: 00:27:41

So I really like this idea that you've

embraced that.

532

: 00:27:44

And a lot of people are going to start to

say things like, okay, well, actually

533

: 00:27:49

I listen to most of my podcasts on the go.

534

: 00:27:50

I listen to most of my shows when I'm

doing something else.

535

: 00:27:54

And it's usually on a smart device,

usually on a phone or whatever.

536

: 00:27:57

So how do you handle that?

537

: 00:27:59

Are you available mobile?

538

: 00:28:01

Can people listen using mobile and using

pod fans?

539

: 00:28:04

Yeah, the good news is we've created

what's called a progressive web app PWA.

540

: 00:28:09

And all that means is browser based.

541

: 00:28:11

It's not in the iOS store or the Google

Store.

542

: 00:28:14

We don't pay Apple a 30% tax for any

transaction, which is why we did it.

543

: 00:28:18

And it means it works across iPad, laptop

and mobile in the same way.

544

: 00:28:24

And we just size the screen down to based

on the size of screen.

545

: 00:28:28

So that's really cool.

546

: 00:28:30

The one thing I was going to slightly

change one thing there was a report this

547

: 00:28:34

week Mark just bear with me.

548

: 00:28:36

Ashley Carmen from Bloomberg put out a

report saying that podcasters now

549

: 00:28:40

beginning to fake their numbers in terms

of downloads.

550

: 00:28:44

And why are they doing that?

551

: 00:28:46

Well, fake until you make it is an

expression that you hear many

552

: 00:28:48

entrepreneurs being told to say but

553

: 00:28:51

reason they're doing that is because they

want to get that $25 CPM.

554

: 00:28:54

Oh, how many how many people download your

book?

555

: 00:28:57

Oh, yeah, a couple of 1000 people.

556

: 00:28:58

All right, well, we'll sign you up.

557

: 00:28:59

There you go.

558

: 00:29:00

You can have some advertising.

559

: 00:29:02

And then they find out it's a couple of

hundred people.

560

: 00:29:04

So that is something that is quite common,

I'm afraid in the in the community.

561

: 00:29:09

And also, we all know if you use something

like an Apple podcast, it auto downloads,

562

: 00:29:14

that doesn't mean you auto listen.

563

: 00:29:16

So you could have a back catalog of

hundreds of podcasts you've never listened

564

: 00:29:19

to.

565

: 00:29:20

But that gets reported back as a download

and therefore the advertiser thinks, oh, I

566

: 00:29:24

should be paying for that.

567

: 00:29:25

The last part of that mark is also we

don't know how far along in a podcast the

568

: 00:29:33

person's listened to.

569

: 00:29:34

So let's say there's three adverts, the

one at the beginning, middle and end.

570

: 00:29:38

We all know the one at the end generally

doesn't get listened to.

571

: 00:29:40

We know the one in the middle probably

gets skipped.

572

: 00:29:42

If it doesn't get skipped, it will get

listened to.

573

: 00:29:44

But we can't 100% know for certain.

574

: 00:29:48

Now with pod fans, we know for certain,

because we know exactly how many minutes

575

: 00:29:52

you've listened to, at what point you

dropped off.

576

: 00:29:55

So we've got three metrics that we've

worked with a company in Canada who have a

577

: 00:29:59

similar thinking called Bumper.

578

: 00:30:01

And it's time listened, percent completed

and value paid.

579

: 00:30:06

And you bring those three metrics together

and you can roll that up to a creator so

580

: 00:30:12

they know exactly how long each listener

listened, but also in aggregate how...

581

: 00:30:16

where people dropped off in your episode.

582

: 00:30:18

You also know how much value was paid for

it.

583

: 00:30:21

And those three, when you go back to an

advertiser, if you still want to put

584

: 00:30:24

advertising into your own podcast, you

can.

585

: 00:30:26

And then the advertiser is going to be

confident that yeah, actually, you know

586

: 00:30:30

what, Mark?

587

: 00:30:31

80% of your listeners listen to that

advert.

588

: 00:30:33

Great, I'm going to continue paying it.

589

: 00:30:35

So again, we've got this old download

model.

590

: 00:30:38

We've got this fake it until you make it

and use a number model.

591

: 00:30:43

And again, that's all changing as well.

592

: 00:30:44

So...

593

: 00:30:45

The way that we're doing micro payments,

it'll be not just good for creators

594

: 00:30:51

linking to their fans, but it also be good

for advertisers trying to be 100% certain

595

: 00:30:56

that their adverts are even being listened

to.

596

: 00:30:59

It's such a challenge that because I think

this is responsible for a lot of the

597

: 00:31:04

downside of the boom that we saw.

598

: 00:31:06

So where we are now basically in the

industry, you know, the renewals of big

599

: 00:31:09

brands looking at partnerships and looking

at even programmatic and so on where

600

: 00:31:13

they're doing big ad buys across various

networks or different types of show.

601

: 00:31:19

You often find renewals are so much more

challenging than the original sale because

602

: 00:31:23

you're absolutely right.

603

: 00:31:24

We can report on downloads, but that.

604

: 00:31:26

That was only sexy when podcasting was

really, really new and it was the only

605

: 00:31:30

metric.

606

: 00:31:30

But now those same people are walking into

the meetings and saying, actually, all

607

: 00:31:35

right, downloads are fine, but what did we

get?

608

: 00:31:37

And you can't you can't constantly just

use brand positioning as the answer to

609

: 00:31:43

that.

610

: 00:31:43

And we know that's happening.

611

: 00:31:44

We see that at the highest levels of

podcasting.

612

: 00:31:47

We see that at the highest levels of ad

sales.

613

: 00:31:50

And we see it reported very, very often,

which, as you said, leads to what we saw

614

: 00:31:55

reported.

615

: 00:31:55

today through Ashley.

616

: 00:31:57

So yeah, I get it.

617

: 00:31:58

I think it's fascinating.

618

: 00:31:59

Now I think the thing that I would say is

the indie producer, so the person that's

619

: 00:32:04

really, really busy, the person that is,

you know, getting the 50 or the 100

620

: 00:32:08

download, you know, good loyal audience,

but actually, they've not got that much

621

: 00:32:13

time.

622

: 00:32:14

What's this going to do for them?

623

: 00:32:17

Is this a challenge from a timing

perspective?

624

: 00:32:19

Do they need to put piles of time into

working with something like pod fans?

625

: 00:32:22

Or how does this accommodate those?

626

: 00:32:25

Really simple.

627

: 00:32:25

So we we've ingested probably about

500,000 podcasts and we'll increase that

628

: 00:32:31

over the next few months.

629

: 00:32:33

Obviously, all 4 million aren't what we

want.

630

: 00:32:35

We talked about anchor earlier.

631

: 00:32:36

So but we'll get all the best podcasts we

think they're out there.

632

: 00:32:41

If yours is one of those podcasts, all you

have to do is then claim it.

633

: 00:32:45

And when you claim it, you get access to a

backend dashboard for pod fans.

634

: 00:32:50

Now

635

: 00:32:51

A pod fan sets a default value for every

podcast out there at 100 sats per minute.

636

: 00:32:57

So an hour show is six thousand sats.

637

: 00:33:00

What's that in real money?

638

: 00:33:01

About 50p.

639

: 00:33:02

Right.

640

: 00:33:02

So it's not a big problem.

641

: 00:33:05

So once you've got a value for every

episode, you as the creator, once you've

642

: 00:33:11

claimed your show, can go and change that

value.

643

: 00:33:13

You can say, oh, OK, I want my show to be

10 sats per minute or a thousand sats per

644

: 00:33:18

minute or zero.

645

: 00:33:19

You can pick what you want.

646

: 00:33:21

In the value for value model that will

just change at the front end and the

647

: 00:33:25

listener will go Oh, that's the new value

that's set by the creator.

648

: 00:33:28

But in the value for value model, I as the

listener have that final say I can still

649

: 00:33:32

change that value as well.

650

: 00:33:34

So as a creator, no, you don't need to do

much you go in and check that the podcast

651

: 00:33:40

that you that's yours is there you claim

it and verify it and it has to be verified

652

: 00:33:44

and we'll

653

: 00:33:48

And then once you've done that, you set

your own values and then you market that

654

: 00:33:52

out to your listeners that this is what we

do and your listeners then have choices,

655

: 00:33:57

pay it or not pay it right.

656

: 00:33:59

But there isn't much more you have to do.

657

: 00:34:00

There's no, Oh my God, do I need to know

how to do a tag in the middle at minute

658

: 00:34:06

one with a DAI link here and something

else and do I need to rub my head and

659

: 00:34:10

scratch my tummy to do this?

660

: 00:34:11

No, it's fairly self-explanatory because

you've got to, you get given a wallet when

661

: 00:34:16

you joined.

662

: 00:34:16

So it, you know,

663

: 00:34:18

It's the same for creators as it is for

listeners.

664

: 00:34:20

You just need a wallet to be receiving

your sats into.

665

: 00:34:26

That's what I like about this concept is

that, well, like we said earlier,

666

: 00:34:29

simplifying the complexity of all of these

mechanisms and moving parts that are

667

: 00:34:32

required to benefit from blockchain

payments and so on and so forth.

668

: 00:34:36

I think that's the real strength behind

the scenes of this is that I can set it

669

: 00:34:42

up.

670

: 00:34:42

And I know the word wallet, I know that

works, but I don't generally have to worry

671

: 00:34:46

about it.

672

: 00:34:46

So I commend you on that, my friend.

673

: 00:34:47

I think that's fantastic work.

674

: 00:34:50

What's the timeline for pod fans then?

675

: 00:34:51

So this is, we're here, we're at 28th of

September.

676

: 00:34:55

2023, what's the status of pod fans now?

677

: 00:34:57

What's the next six months look like to

wrap this up?

678

: 00:35:01

So earlier this week, we took off the

wrapper.

679

: 00:35:04

It's now a beta product.

680

: 00:35:05

It was an alpha.

681

: 00:35:06

And so it's mobile, it's desktop, it's in

all those screens in between.

682

: 00:35:12

That's great.

683

: 00:35:14

And yeah, please go and use it.

684

: 00:35:15

We've also built a really, I mean, talking

about paying SATS, Mark, we've built a

685

: 00:35:20

feedback model where if you give us a bug

report, we pay you in SATS as a thank you.

686

: 00:35:25

So we give you some SATS for reporting

bugs.

687

: 00:35:27

If you give us a brand new feature

suggestion,

688

: 00:35:30

give you some slats as well for that.

689

: 00:35:31

So again, there's ways of getting earning

it.

690

: 00:35:34

But fundamentally, yeah, you can go in

there.

691

: 00:35:36

You can use it.

692

: 00:35:37

Now what we are doing is increasing the

servers.

693

: 00:35:42

We're building this.

694

: 00:35:43

We talked about it very tangently.

695

: 00:35:44

We're building a new music element to it

as well.

696

: 00:35:47

So lots of independent music artists are

now being said, I don't really like

697

: 00:35:51

putting my music on Apple and Spotify.

698

: 00:35:53

I don't really make any money, but they're

beginning to create RSS feeds for their

699

: 00:35:58

music.

700

: 00:35:59

and uploading those to the index and then

we can download those and using a payment

701

: 00:36:04

model value for value, they can get paid

directly by their fans and Ashley Ainsley

702

: 00:36:09

Costello, sorry, an artist on who's done

this said on Twitter or X that she made 20

703

: 00:36:18

or dollars when she did it across 60

streaming platforms and she made $400 in

704

: 00:36:23

one day doing the same thing using SATs.

705

: 00:36:27

artists are beginning to understand and

artists more than podcasters have a deeper

706

: 00:36:31

connection to their fans.

707

: 00:36:32

I mean, we all love to think our fans love

us, but realistically they are a little

708

: 00:36:38

bit flirty.

709

: 00:36:39

If we went away, they'd go away.

710

: 00:36:40

Right.

711

: 00:36:41

They wouldn't chase us down and find us.

712

: 00:36:42

But if a music artist goes, you're like,

Oh my God, I love you.

713

: 00:36:48

Where have you gone?

714

: 00:36:48

Right.

715

: 00:36:49

And, and their commitment to music is much

higher.

716

: 00:36:52

So

717

: 00:36:53

The value for value model works really,

really well with music.

718

: 00:36:56

So we're adding a music element very

shortly to it as well.

719

: 00:37:01

fascinating work as someone that builds

software, my friend, I know how difficult

720

: 00:37:04

this is to pull off.

721

: 00:37:05

And yeah, come on, commend you on the

work, but also just the way that you lead

722

: 00:37:09

in the thinking as well.

723

: 00:37:10

So yeah, absolutely commendable workers

always.

724

: 00:37:13

And I think everyone should just give that

give this a whirl, even if I'm always a

725

: 00:37:18

fan of trying things anyway, I think even

if you don't stick with it, I'm not saying

726

: 00:37:20

that would be the case with pod fans, but

please, anyone listening, just go over

727

: 00:37:24

there and try this and you can find that

at podfans.fm.

728

: 00:37:28

So I heartily recommend that you do that.

729

: 00:37:31

Well, Sam, it's always a pleasure.

730

: 00:37:32

I know you've held an event this week with

James, which I'm sure was absolutely

731

: 00:37:35

fantastic.

732

: 00:37:37

I was out of the country for it.

733

: 00:37:38

So I'm sorry I couldn't be there, but if

it's anything like the Manchester one, I

734

: 00:37:40

know it would have been a roaring success.

735

: 00:37:42

And yeah, look forward to seeing you in

person soon, my friend.

736

: 00:37:46

Indeed, indeed.

737

: 00:37:47

And we're going to a Liverpool game

together.

738

: 00:37:48

So that'll be even more fun.

739

: 00:37:51

That sounds good.

740

: 00:37:52

Speaking of that, I appreciate that.

741

: 00:37:54

I cannot wait for that.

742

: 00:37:54

I'm looking forward to that.

743

: 00:37:55

If you would like to send Sam and I some

beer money for that, you can do that at

744

: 00:38:00

mark.live slash support.

745

: 00:38:01

It's like we planned that, Sam.

746

: 00:38:03

It's like this smooth segue into sending

747

: 00:38:09

Thanks for watching!

748

: 00:38:20

Any industry events outside of your own?

749

: 00:38:22

No, no, I mean, I think we're coming to

the end of those.

750

: 00:38:25

So we did our own one and I also went to

the British Podcast Awards this week and

751

: 00:38:28

gave out an award.

752

: 00:38:30

The next big event, Mark, for me, and

maybe you might be there, is the one in

753

: 00:38:34

the LA podcast movement.

754

: 00:38:36

I will be there.

755

: 00:38:37

It'll be the first time back on the West

Coast since COVID because of the family

756

: 00:38:42

and travel.

757

: 00:38:42

So I'm excited for that.

758

: 00:38:43

We actually booked the hotel.

759

: 00:38:44

We booked the flights.

760

: 00:38:45

We are there.

761

: 00:38:47

So I'm excited for that.

762

: 00:38:48

And for you listening out there, if you

are interested, go to podfans.fm.

763

: 00:38:54

And if you've got any questions, just get

in touch with us on the usual channels.

764

: 00:38:58

The Twitter's all, I'm not gonna call it

X, the Twitter's the best way to do that.

765

: 00:39:02

And I'm at MrAsquith and Sam.

766

: 00:39:05

You're over on Twitter as well, aren't

you?

767

: 00:39:07

at Sam Sethi or at JoinPodFans.

768

: 00:39:10

Just come and ping me and I'm more than

happy to give you an answer to whatever

769

: 00:39:13

question you have.

770

: 00:39:14

Amazing stuff and for you listening, enjoy

yourself.

771

: 00:39:17

Thank you for tuning in.

772

: 00:39:17

It's always a pleasure until the next

time.

773

: 00:39:19

Keep on doing what you do.

774

: 00:39:20

Keep sharing your voice, your thoughts

with the world and look after yourself.

775

: 00:39:25

Bye bye for now.